Talk:Ryuji Sakamoto
Ryuji Sakamoto Where does it said that Ryuji Sakamoto was a transfer student. --Cococrash11 (talk) 21:44, March 21, 2016 (UTC) Eyebrows Actually, missing the outside part of eyebrows is an indicator of hypothyroidism. I had inner-only eyebrows for a while, but with supplementation, they mostly grew back. Hypothyroidism is probably not part of this guy's character, though. -- 01:03, November 17, 2016 (UTC) Flag I fail to see how wearing a national symbol in its country of origin shows a rebellious attitude. The controversy comes from Korea's relations with Japan. Great Mara (talk) 03:01, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :Because it's like wearing a Nazi flag in Germany. It's still politically incorrect and rebellious to do so, because most German people would be disgusted by it. It's rebellious when it comes to *social norms* and *political correctness*, it's not intended to be rebellious against the country of origin. —AlexShepherd ツ 03:05, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::Did you know nationalism is still a thing in Japan today? -- Inpursuit (talk) 03:09, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :::Didn't you say it yourself? The Rising Sun Flag is NOT just a "yay, Japan rocks!" symbol, it also has negative and offensive war connotations to it. It's like wearing a swastika in Germany or a Confederate Flag in the US. It's not pure nationalism, but you definitely go against social taboos and offend people by wearing it.—AlexShepherd ツ :Another Alex' usual over-interpretation of thing that was applied by the dev merely for aesthetic choice. -- Inpursuit (talk) 03:07, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::It was absolutely NOT intended for mere aesthetics. It was obviously intended to show Ryuji's rebellious nature and status as a juvenile delinquent. The term is called "yankii", and you can read more about it here. The devs knew exactly what they were doing. —AlexShepherd ツ 03:11, May 26, 2017 (UTC) I don't think there is room for further discussion, there's no way Alex would come out from his fantasy of personal impression. Also "Chinese and Korean" is unnecessary to replace "Asian" versions of the game when in video game industry conventionally the term excludes Japan's native release. -- Inpursuit (talk) 03:17, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::Unless something from the devs is stating that its whats intended, that's an assumption on your part that its from the yankii movement. The note should just be reduced to the fact that the element was censored in foreign releases. Great Mara (talk) 03:20, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::You're being ludicrous when it's so obviously the dev's intent. Persona 5 is all about politics and rebelling against social norms, and features a lot of commentary when it comes to Japan. It's not a coincidence they used an offensive symbol on a character intended to be a rebellious delinquent. Also, not everyone reading this wiki is used to "Asian doesn't mean Japan" mentality or familiar with the idea, so it's better to just specify Korea and China. Next thing you know, you're going to try to claim his bleached hair and him not wearing his school uniform's suspenders is just "totally a coincidence that is not intended to show his delinquency". —AlexShepherd ツ 03:24, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :::I'm being ludicrous by not making a claim with nothing but conjecture to back it up? No. Either it can be backed up by obvious evidence in game or developer comments, otherwise it has nothing to tread water with. And just because A applied to his outfit and hair doesn't mean B automatically applies in the choice of wearing the symbol. Unless he elaborates on anything like that in game, its an assumption again. Great Mara (talk) 03:28, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::::It's not just "conjecture", it's literally common sense. Even if it's the 1% chance that it's all just a coincidence, it still (factually) paints him in a rebellious way that is worth mentioning. —AlexShepherd ツ 03:32, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :::::If it's not conjecture, then cite the instance where he even mentions it. If there's doubt one way or the other about the intention of the symbol then it would be conjecture on the part of the reader. Great Mara (talk) 03:34, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::::::What you're doing is like looking at a photo of a carrot, and not allowing it to be called a carrot on the 1% chance that it's a potato that has been carved, dyed orange and disguised to resemble a carrot. Anyway, Ryuji was designed to resemble a misbehaving student.https://youtu.be/fuEoolc5OUg?t=140 It's all about putting it together and seeing the blatantly obvious. —AlexShepherd ツ 03:38, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :::::::And misbehaving students can't show any pride in their own country without it automatically being an intended slight to another? That's only blatantly obvious to your perspective. Great Mara (talk) 03:40, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :::::::Alex, let this matter rest and more importantly, let yourself rest and be free from imaginations. There's no way you can convince us given the materials we have right now. -- Inpursuit (talk) 03:41, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::I already told you, it's NOT just a pro-nationalist symbol, it's also a symbol that is obviously offensive, and the people who wear it KNOW that it's offensive. TIL that people who wear the equivalent of a swastika/confederate flag on their clothing are ignorant about it and wear it because of pure aesthetics. I'm just a "silly goose" and have "silly fantasies" and "imaginations" that are totally silly and illogical. You two really are something. —AlexShepherd ツ 03:46, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::Japanese conservationists like Shido LOVE it! The symbol is no way a taboo like the Nazi symbol, at least within Japan. -- Inpursuit (talk) 03:50, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::::And the Persona 5 devs are just totally blind to the fact that Persona 5 will be shown to people in other countries besides Japan, amirite? The devs of both Persona and Catherine are obviously the type of devs who dive into social taboos and like to stir up uncomfortable feelings in players. —AlexShepherd ツ 03:54, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::::You don't get it at all. Unless for extreme leftist, Japanese people use the rising sun flag without second thought. Even Kaneko's Apollo features the rising sun from chest to ankles more prominently, but Tatsuya Suou has no trait of being rebellious or nationalist. -- Inpursuit (talk) 04:10, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::::::Tatsuya is a delinquent who skips class with Anna. And you're ignoring the whole concept of yankii and acting like it's totally irrelevant. Also, you did not counter my previous point that we should use "China and Korea" because many people are unfamiliar with gaming conventions, and it never hurts to be specific and eliminate areas of confusion. —AlexShepherd ツ 04:23, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::::::Just wonderful, now Katsuya Suou too is a delinquent and yankii because of Hyperion's rising sun symbol. -- Inpursuit (talk) 04:30, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::::::::Stop putting words and my mouth and saying things I'm not. The rising sun symbol in those Personas is far more pronounced, and I'm not arguing Tatsuya/Katsuya are yankii. It's obvious what they were going for with Ryuji, however, due to the more obvious rising sun and the fact that Ryuji is designed to be a delinquent. —AlexShepherd ツ 04:38, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::It just shows that there is no consistency of the intention of the flag's application. Unless Ryuji shows sign of being militaristic/nationalistic (which is the reason it provokes most Korean and Chinese people), any interpretation beyond just that is original research without gravity. -- Inpursuit (talk) 04:51, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::::::::::I don't think it's a fair comparison since the flags in those Personas are so subtle, and you could argue Tatsuya is delinquent, while Katsuya is a Japanese police officer and can be nationalistic in this sense that he wants to help Japanese people. Ryuji could be seen as nationalistic since he wants to reform Japanese society as a Phantom Thief for their betterment. Anyway, can you PLEASE actually address my "China/Korea" point? Even DirtyBlue agrees with me. —AlexShepherd ツ 04:56, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::::::::::::I hope you have no intention to add anything about Ryuji being nationalist in the article base on your assumption that isn't present in the game. -- Inpursuit (talk) 05:03, May 26, 2017 (UTC) (unindent) Answer my freaking question already, please. I've asked three times. If you don't find a good counter-argument, I'm changing it to "China/Korea". —AlexShepherd ツ 05:09, May 26, 2017 (UTC) Those symbols are no longer still part of the national flag of said countries, so that's a false equivalency. And as for the latter those are your words, not ours. And once again, we fall to the point that this is a wiki. All information must be accurate, verifiable and objective; which the note doesn't meet. Great Mara (talk) 03:51, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :And we can't even suggest or mention the possibility of the blatantly obvious. Shame. —AlexShepherd ツ 03:54, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::Alex, you are the only person here who considers this "blatantly obvious." All of these arguments you've been making recently about stuff like this revolve around you having convinced yourself that your own unlikely interpretations of things - which IMO are just you reading WAY too much into them - are "inherently obvious to everyone" with the convenient exceptions of the people you're arguing with. If you want to actually convince anyone instead of just passive-aggressively debating with mods you're going to need to find actual people who actually agree and have them weigh in. ::I do agree about the whole "specify China/Korea" thing, though. That makes sense to me.--DirtyBlue929 (talk) 04:29, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :::I'm not the "only one". A ton of Kotaku commenters also agree that it was the intent. —AlexShepherd ツ 04:38, May 26, 2017 (UTC) Why are you guys arguing with Alex about this...? Anyone who knows anything about Japan's history knows that the Rising Sun flag is specifically linked to their (pretty terrible) actions before they entered their era of peace; if people are still using it frequently in Japan, that's because Japan still has a ton of nationalist sentiment lying around. I don't know much about fashion or whether this stuff needs to be mentioned on the page or not, but trying to say that the rising sun isn't very political is ridiculous. (Though that said I don't think Ryuji has nationalistic thoughts, I think he's a dumb kid that wears dumb things, lol.) -A (talk) 05:57, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :Read the conversation first. No one said it isn't political, the crux of the matter was whether or not it was intentional on the part of the developers to be displayed as something more than a fashion choice. Great Mara (talk) 06:00, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::Dev did mention Ryuji is terrible in his fasion choice. -- Inpursuit (talk) 06:05, May 26, 2017 (UTC) ::There's like five different lines of thought going on in this conversation and everyone keeps switching between them. The part that jumped out to me was trying to justify it as "normal" and "pride in your country", like a politician, but I guess that's incidental and not actually important here. I don't know if author intent is needed in the case of "x is x" though. Research into yankii tells me about bleached hair and rough Japanese; I don't know what his Japanese is like from the English game, but Morgana criticizes it a lot. Just some real evidence for the discussion I guess. -A (talk) 06:13, May 26, 2017 (UTC) :::No, it was trying to point out that it can go either way because there's nothing pointing to one over the other. The argument trying to be set forth in the note was "x might be x, so y must be true as well" with nothing to back it up. Great Mara (talk) 06:45, May 26, 2017 (UTC)